jurph ([info]jurph) wrote,
@ 2006-02-07 09:18:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend  Next Entry
Current mood:Allahu Snackbar
Current music:Bloodhound Gang - Fire Water Burn
Entry tags:islam, liberty, magritte, overreaction, violence

The treachery of images
The creation of images of Muhammad (pbuh) is against a subset of Islamic teachings from the Hadith, but is not a general prohibition. Sunnis, particularly fundamentalist Sunnis, believe that it is improper to create a physical representation of the prophet. You might compare this to fundamentalist evangelicals in the American South, who believe that Catholics are misguided because they use the crucifix (not just a cross) and statues of the Blessed Virgin and the saints. Maybe you even remember that in the summer of 2001, the Taliban were destroying statues of Buddha in a broad interpretation of this belief (called "aniconism"). So it's no surprise that the Danish cartoons pissed off a lot of Muslims just by being images of Muhammad. Never mind that the cartoon used Muhammad as a symbol for Islam in general, and that symbol was being used to make some offensive points about Islam. Freedom of the press, which holds that anything lawful may (some would say "must") be printed, is obviously at odds with any group that holds taboos about ideas or images.

The U.S. State Department's position was that "Jyllands-Posten has the right to publish these cartoons and people who are offended by them have the right to express their anger. But no one has a right to threaten violence."

So now an Iranian newspaper has announced a Holocaust Cartoon contest. Given that the reaction, until now, has been a petulant and violent tantrum (only with firebombs, 'cause that's more fun), I'd say they're on the right track. I want to see Europe squirm on this one, and I want to see every newspaper that printed the Muhammad cartoons print the Holocaust Cartoons, or an editorial explaining why they won't...

...just as soon as Denmark has received formal diplomatic apologies for the destruction of their embassies in Syria and Lebanon, the vandalism of their embassy in Indonesia, the armed assaults on the EU offices in Gaza, the bomb threats against the Jyllands-Posten, and any other acts or credible threats of violence.



edit: I've been linked in today's Slate, so I'm screening anonymous comments.



(26 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]roninspoon
2006-02-07 03:37 pm UTC (link)
I'm just glad to see other countries fucking up for a change.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]jibbsey
2006-02-08 03:07 pm UTC (link)
because Europe has no history of previous conflict w/Islam?
Remember the whole, France banning the hijjab in schools thing? (my favorite quote from was from a high school girl, arguing for her right to wear a headscarf "other students dress in all black and openly worship Satan! and nobody bothers THEM..."

it does shock me that this is happening in Denmark, where women leave their baby carriages on the street when they go to the store, because the region is THAT safe.

some other thoughts (not necessarily regarding your comment but i'm too lazy to split them up and completely pollute this entry)

1.I'm not sure I see all the necessary connections that link Printing cartoons of the Prophet resulting in the European Press squirming over printing the subsequent cartoons from this contest.

cause while it may be illegal to say "the Holocaust didn't happen" Nobody had a problem printing "the Iranian President said that the Holocaust didn't happen"

2. There might actually be something to be learned from the cartoons get printed by the Iranian press, perverted though it may sound. 'Cause if it's a given that the Holocaust has been omitted from the curriculum we'll be seeing the results of it, what you're not going to get much of are the historically accurate plays on the atrocities that actually took place. The majority of the submissions would be some gross caricatures straight from the imagination of a generation taught by rumor that no Jews were present in the Twin Towers when they went down in flames & now being taught by their mass media that the mass extermination of Jews would not only be funny, it can be profitable a well! Which, in a sick way, might actually be more valuable to understanding one of the problems at hand...

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]kungfupolarbear
2006-02-07 04:16 pm UTC (link)
I don't see how the two are remotely the same... and ever read MAUS? the whole book is a cartoon about the holocaust... but not making fun of it, per se. Its not a religious thing, either.. and I'm pretty sure most people think Iran is batshit insane right now that they won't even get quite as mad as if it were a sane country doing it.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]kungfupolarbear
2006-02-07 04:16 pm UTC (link)
Also... why bother the Jews? They had nothing to do with the muhammad cartoon, really. Man.. that's a stretch.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]jurph
2006-02-07 04:44 pm UTC (link)
Why bother the Muslims in the first place? The original set of comics were to prove a point about freedom of the press, and Muslims who are offended by images of Muhammad were the butt of the joke.

Instead of burning buildings, Iran -- as batshit as they may be -- are saying, in effect, "we get the joke, now here's one for you." Like a black man in the South who says "that's mighty White of you" when someone is condescending to him, the president of Iran is giving as good as he gets. Turnabout is fair play.

And yeah, I think Art Spiegelman absolutely deserves to win first place in the Holocaust Cartoon contest.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]kungfupolarbear
2006-02-07 05:26 pm UTC (link)
I understand the concept, but not its implementation. I don't see how an image of the holocaust would be a joke on the people who posted the muhammad picture, that's all. So Iran is like "hey look you helped cause this, hah!" Is that the joke? I'm just seeing total apples and oranges here. The insult was that there was an image of a religious leader that shouldn't be depicted in visual form. The reply is "lets draw some dead jews because Europe let that happen". Its 2 TOTALLY different things. If this were a "who's country caused a bigger atrocity" contest, then it would make sense. Religious leader != Holacaust reminder

Unless there's some logic I'm completely and utterly missing, its just that they picked the first negative thing that popped into their heads and will draw pictures of it. Couldn't they make fun of some political leader, or someone elses religious leader, or something? I don't even see who would give a rats ass about the cartoons they're coming out with. If they are aiming to insult Jews, its a low (and unrelated to the situation) blow, if they are aiming to insult europe, they probably won't do much damage.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]jurph
2006-02-07 05:48 pm UTC (link)
The idea is that while Muhammad is an inflammatory subject in the Middle East, the Holocaust is a similarly inflammatory subject in Europe. Newspapers in Europe have no problem printing images that piss Muslims off as an object lesson in free speech; Iran has basically asked "are you tough enough to offend the readers in your backyard, too?" Yes, they are nutjobs. Yes, they are assholes.

...but they make an interesting point. I think Europeans are far too wishy-washy about their principles, and I just know that they'll weasel out of this by saying "Iran is being ridiculous again," instead of printing the cartoons and showing Iran how a sensible Western democracy reacts to something it finds offensive.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]livinginfits
2006-02-07 05:56 pm UTC (link)
also, to this point, contrasting the holocaust against the actions of the israeli government is certainly relevant and topical. the western media seems to have a hands off approach in regard to israel due to some form of holocaust guilt. obviously, the idealogical stance that iran is approaching the issue from is kinda out in outer space... but still, perhaps some cartoonists will respond properly. frankly, i would encourage all of them to see spielberg's new film... which i felt showed that both sides have become monsters to fight monsters.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]kungfupolarbear
2006-02-07 06:01 pm UTC (link)
Munich is a good film? I was thinking about seeing it. I think Iran is conveniently bringing its beef with Israel into this whole thing, but hey, I'll choose the creative approach over the violent approach any day. I just wish they had tried that first.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]livinginfits
2006-02-07 06:26 pm UTC (link)
the film does drag in bits... but overall, it's really good. i really felt like it showed how it was destroying something in an attempt to save it (that something being future generations).

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]jurph
2006-02-07 06:32 pm UTC (link)
You make the point below (it's impossible to follow the timestamps on this thing!) that there is no unified "they". Now that Iranians have destroyed the Norwegian(?) embassy, it's harder to say "Iran" has done anything -- some Iranians have burned an embassy, and others have proposed a counter-contest, and for all we know, some Iranians are cheerfully blogging about how unhip their fundamentalist reactionary parents are.

I, too, wish they had skipped the fire and destruction altogether.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]kungfupolarbear
2006-02-07 06:46 pm UTC (link)
ok ok I meant "those in Iran who have a beef with Israel and are drawing cartoons". I had to go back and figure out what the comments are to, this thread is getting convoluted, heh!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]kungfupolarbear
2006-02-07 06:00 pm UTC (link)
Had they come out with this tactic before the violence and complete violent overreaction, maybe I'd take it seriously. I see their point - but its like me setting fire to your house and THEN sending you a sternly written letter voicing my displeasure with you.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]jurph
2006-02-07 06:05 pm UTC (link)
Which is my original point. The violence is a completely unacceptable form of discourse (it ain't discourse, period), but that doesn't mean Europe can play the "get out of self-reflection free" card. Like I said above,
I want to see every newspaper that printed the Muhammad cartoons print the Holocaust Cartoons, or an editorial explaining why they won't just as soon as Denmark has received formal diplomatic apologies for the destruction of their embassies in Syria and Lebanon, the vandalism of their embassy in Indonesia, the armed assaults on the EU offices in Gaza, the bomb threats against the Jyllands-Posten, and any other acts or credible threats of violence.


Sean has a point, and Iran could have really put the screws to Europe by saying they'd like to see "the top twelve cartoons depicting Israel acting like Nazis".

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]kungfupolarbear
2006-02-07 06:12 pm UTC (link)
This puts me in such a weird situation because a lot of the stuff i studied did show that the "iron wall" policy had its basis in a lot of nazi-like thought and propaganda. I think Europe should quit kissing Israel's butt, BUT I also think there was nothing wrong with posting the muhammad cartoon, and if anything it just made it easier for everyone to know who the reactionary, violent muslims are and who the sensible ones are who were angry, but reacted responsibly. I guess I agree with both sides and am equally annoyed by both of them.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]kungfupolarbear
2006-02-07 05:40 pm UTC (link)
besides, were the firebombings, stonings, riots, and trade embargoes not enough? The pictures aren't being re-printed every day, and they apologised, so what else does Denmark have to do before it stops?

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]fergusmacairt
2006-02-07 06:48 pm UTC (link)
It seems to me that there is a world of difference between poking fun at a religion because of the actions of some of its followers (Christianity anyone?) and poking fun at the systematic mass murder (attempted genocide) of millions of followers of a particular religion. I'd have no problem with publishing the former. Publishing the latter would be just as tasteless as wearing a t-shirt with a swastica on it to the Holocaust Museum. You should be allowed to do it, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea.

Also, this kinda sounds like, "You pissed me off, so I'm gonna shoot that guy who happens to be a mutual acquaintence who I don't like." Very mature.

It should also be noted that the original reason for posting the cartoons was in response to an author of a book (I believe about Islam) complaining that he couldn't find depictions of Muhammad anywhere. It doesn't sounds like it was a deliberate jab at Muslims. The subsequent reposting was more a statement about free speech/press than anything else too.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]jurph
2006-02-07 07:10 pm UTC (link)
From Wikipedia's article on the topic, your read on the original situation sounds pretty accurate:
Flemming Rose, the cultural editor of Jyllands-Posten, commissioned twelve cartoonists for the project and published the cartoons to highlight the difficulty experienced by Danish writer Kåre Bluitgen in finding artists to illustrate his children's book about Muhammad. Cartoonists previously approached by Bluitgen were reportedly unwilling to work with him for fear of violent attacks by extremist Muslims.


...and you make a solid point above. Our particular brand of free speech says that it's okay to draw public figures (including religious figures) as caricatures, and that satire is protected, especially from religious interference. Hate speech -- for example, praising or denying the Holocaust -- is also still legal here, but in many European countries, it's actually illegal to deny the Holocaust in public.1 Given their position on the subject is from the moral high ground of "Free Speech", Iran is really putting the screws to them. In Iran it's illegal to make graven images of the Prophet; in Europe you can't say "the Holocaust never happened." President Ahmenidejad has already publicly denied the Holocaust, and was soundly excoriated in the Western press for doing so.

I think that Iran's provocative contest is belligerent, mean-spirited, spiteful, and lots of other adjectives; it's in poor taste, especially now that the overreaction of many Muslims has caused so much damage.

But that doesn't mean I don't want to hear the European press's answer. I was really disappointed with the State Department's answer when I heard it last week, but now it seems like one of the most rational points of view in this whole mess.



1. "Public denial of the Holocaust is a criminal offence in Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Israel, Lithuania, Netherlands, Poland, Romania, Slovakia and Switzerland, and is punishable by fines and jail sentences." - Wikipedia, "<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial>Holocaust Denial</a>"

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]fergusmacairt
2006-02-07 07:45 pm UTC (link)
I don't really see a problem with the State Department response other than that it does not condemn the violence in strong enough terms for my liking.

I would expect the western press to respond with something to the effect of what you said:
"I think that Iran's provocative contest is belligerent, mean-spirited, spiteful, and lots of other adjectives; it's in poor taste, especially now that the overreaction of many Muslims has caused so much damage."

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Holocaust Cartoons, YES ...
(Anonymous)
2006-02-08 01:12 am UTC (link)

Go for it, Iran.

The B'nai Brith and the Jewish Anti-Defamation League
will probably complain, maybe even threaten to sue somebody.

There might even be some small protests.

You know how many embassies will be burned?
None.
How many people killed?
None.

Because people in the West really do understand &
value freedom of expression.

How many Buddhists rioted & killed people when the
Taliban blew up the collosal Buddha images in
Afghanistan? None.


(Reply to this)


[info]livinginfits
2006-02-08 05:34 am UTC (link)
yo. check this out. i found it linked in this.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Printing Holocaust Cartoons
(Anonymous)
2006-02-08 01:25 pm UTC (link)
Why would Europeans publish the Holocaust cartoons? Europeans only ask that Muslims accept the freedom of Europeans to publish the Muhammad cartoons; they are not demanding that Muslims publish them.

The best analogy here for the Iranians would be to ask Europeans to remain calm while Muslims publish antisemitic cartoons: and in fact this happens all the time. Muslim countries publish that stuff constantly, and Europeans barely notice. Test passed.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Printing Holocaust Cartoons
[info]jurph
2006-02-08 03:25 pm UTC (link)
Good call - you're absolutely right.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Printing Holocaust Cartoons
[info]livinginfits
2006-02-08 08:11 pm UTC (link)
that's framing the whole issue as a "how do you react to this?" kinda thing. while that's a valid point, the paper that published the the cartoons stated that wasn't its purpose.

the purpose of the cartoons published in the danish paper were to challenge european self-censorship. i think it's completely valid to challenge european taboos on speech as well as the taboos of other cultures.

while iran is totally off-base in where it's coming from on this, especially in light of the fact that the cartoons it's requesting are common in the arab world... the do highlight a valid point. if you're going to challenge some self-censorship... all self-censorship is up for challenge.

even more troubling to me is the further revelation that to publish blasphemy is aparently illegal in denmark. that, and the public denial of the holocaust. while i may not agree with things, i don't think those two speech issues should be legislated.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]listless_autumn
2006-02-08 10:45 pm UTC (link)
hi, juruph.

(Reply to this)

In bad taste
[info]flaggerx
2006-02-22 03:14 am UTC (link)
Frankly, I've never for a secong believed the Islamic argument that "You'd do it too." Sure we'd get mildly pissed and Fred Phelps might come picket but we're westerers. If we firebombed things that pissed us of the creators of South Park would have joined Jimmy Hoffa long ago.

To put proof to the lie an Israeli cartoonist has started his own anti-Semetic car. One of the cartoons (peneed by a Jewish Israeli) has two guys talking asking, "How much space does it take to hold six million Jews" Reply, "One ashtray".

They may not like what we do in the West but they don't get to tell us what to do. Peaceful protests would have been understandable and appropriate. The reaction that followed owes far more to a toddler's tantrum than anything else.

(Reply to this)


(26 comments) - (Post a new comment)

Create an Account
Forgot your login or password?
Login w/ OpenID
English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…